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FreeBSD
Frequently Asked Questions
For Version 2.0
Please mail all suggestions and additions to <FreeBSD-FAQ@FreeBSD.ORG>
Revision: $Id: FreeBSD.FAQ,v 1.4 1994/10/03 03:48:38 gclarkii Exp $
All entries are assumed to be relevant to FreeBSD 2.0.
Any entries with a <XXX> are under construction.
Table of Contents
-----------------
0 Preface
1 Installation
2 Hardware Compatibility
3 Commercial applications
4 User Applications
5 Miscellaneous Questions
6 Kernel Configuration
7 System Administration
8 Networking
9 Serial Communications <XXX>
0 Preface
---------
Welcome to the FreeBSD 2.0 FAQ! This document tries to answer some of
the most frequently asked questions about FreeBSD 2.0.
If there's something you're having trouble with and you do not see it
here, please send email to:
<FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG>
Some of the instructions here will also refer to auxiliary utilities
in the /usr/src/contrib/FAQ directory. CDROM purchasers and net folks
who've grabbed the FreeBSD 2.0 `srcdist' will have these files. If
you don't have the source distribution, then you can either grab the
whole thing from:
ftp.FreeBSD.ORG:pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current
Or you can grab only those files you're interested in straight out of
the FreeBSD-current distribution in:
ftp.FreeBSD.ORG:pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src
0.1: What is FreeBSD?
FreeBSD 2.0 is a UN*X type operating system based on U.C. Berkeley's
4.4BSD-lite release for the i386 platform. It is also based indirectly
on William Jolitz's port of U.C. Berkeley's Net/2 to the i386, 386BSD.
There have been many additions and bug fixes made throughout
the entire system, some of the highlights of which are:
More robust and extensive PC device support
System V-style IPC, messaging and semaphores
Shared Libraries
Much improved virtual memory code
Better console driver support
Network booting (diskless) support
Yellow Pages support
Full support of the PCI bus
Loadable kernel modules
Too many additional utilities and applications to mention
0.2: What are the FreeBSD mailing lists, and how can I get on them?
The following mailing lists are provided for FreeBSD users and
developers. For more information, send to
<majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG> and include a single line saying
``help'' in the body of your message.
FreeBSD-announce: For announcements about or on FreeBSD.
FreeBSD-hackers: Useful for persons wishing to work on the internals.
FreeBSD-questions: General questions on FreeBSD.
FreeBSD-bugs: Where bugs should be sent.
FreeBSD-SCSI: Mailing list for SCSI developers.
FreeBSD-current: This list is for persons wishing to run FreeBSD-current
and carries announcements and discussions on current.
The FreeBSD-commit list has been broken up into groups dealing with different
areas of intrest.
Please see also the FreeBSD mailing list FAQ in:
/usr/src/contrib/FAQ/FreeBSD.mailing-list.FAQ
0.3: What are the various FreeBSD news groups?
While there are no groups currently dedicated to FreeBSD, you may find
the following groups useful.
comp.os.386bsd.announce: For announcements
comp.os.386bsd.apps: For applications
comp.os.386bsd.questions: For questions
comp.os.386bsd.development: For working on the internals
comp.os.386bsd.bugs: About bugs
comp.os.386bsd.misc: For items that don't fit anywhere else
NOTE: These groups cover all the *BSDs (FreeBSD, NetBSD, 386BSD).
comp.os.bsd: General BSD topics, maybe of intrest
1 Installation
--------------
1.1: I just installed my system and rebooted. Now I can't find the
extract or configure programs, where did they go?
These two commands are just shell functions defined in /.profile. To
get these back, boot FreeBSD with a `-s' at the boot prompt.
1.2: I want to install FreeBSD onto a SCSI disk that has more than
1024 cylinders. How do I do it?
This depends. If you don't have DOS (or another operating system) on
the system, you can just keep the drive in native mode and simply make
sure that your root partition is below 1024 so the BIOS can boot the
kernel from it. It you also have DOS/some other OS on the drive then
your best bet is to find out what parameters that it thinks you have
before installing FreeBSD. When FreeBSD's installation procedure
prompts you for these values, you should then enter them rather than
simply going with the defaults.
There is a freely available utility distributed with FreeBSD called
`pfdisk' (located in the tools/ subdirectory) which can be used for
this purpose.
1.3: When I boot FreeBSD it says ``Missing Operating System''.
See question 1.2. This is classically a case of FreeBSD and DOS or
some other OS conflicting over their ideas of disk geometry. You will
have to reinstall FreeBSD, but obeying the instructions given above
will almost always get you going.
1.4: I have an IDE drive with lots of bad blocks on it and FreeBSD doesn't
seem to install properly.
FreeBSD's bad block (bad144) handling is still not 100% (to put it
charitably) and it must unfortunately be said that if you've got an
IDE or ESDI drive with lots of bad blocks, then FreeBSD is probably
not for you! That said, it does work on thousands of IDE based
systems, so you'd do well to try it first before simply giving up.
IDE drives are *supposed* to come with built-in bad-block remapping;
if you have documentation for your drive, you may want to see if this
feature has been disabled on your drive. However, ESDI, RLL, and
ST-506 drives normally do not do this.
1.5: I have 32MB of memory, should I expect any special problems?
No. FreeBSD 2.0 comes with bounce buffers which allows your bus
mastering controller access to greater than 16MB.
1.6: Do I need to install the complete sources?
In general, no. However, we would strongly recommend that you
install, at a minimum, the `base' source kit, which includes several
of the files mentioned here, and the `sys' (kernel) source kit, which
includes sources for the kernel. There is nothing in the system which
requires the presence of the sources to operate, however, except for
the kernel-configuration program config(8). With the exception of the
kernel sources, our build structure is set up so that you can
read-only mount the sources from elsewhere via NFS and still be able
to make new binaries. (Because of the kernel-source restriction, we
recommend that you not mount this on /usr/src directly, but rather in
some other location with appropriate symbolic links to duplicate the
top-level structure of the source tree.)
Having the sources on-line and knowing how to build a system with them
will make it much easier for you to upgrade to future releases of
FreeBSD.
1.7: DES encryption software can not be exported from the United
States. If I live outside the US, how can I encrypt passwords?
Since the DES encryption algorithm, which is used by passwd(1) and
friends to encrypt passwords cannot legally be exported from the US,
non-US users should not download this software from US FTP sites.
There is however a replacement libcrypt available, based on sources
written in Australia by David Burren. This code is now available on
some non-US FreeBSD mirror sites. Sources for the unencumbered
libcrypt, and binaries of the programs which use it, can be obtained
from the following FTP sites:
South Africa: braae.ru.ac.za:/pub/FreeBSD/securedist/
owl.und.ac.za (currently uncertain)
Iceland: ftp.veda.is:/pub/crypt/FreeBSD/
The non-US securedist can be used as a direct replacement for the
encumbered US securedist. This securedist package is installed the
same way as the US package (see installation notes for details). If
you are going to install DES encryption, you should do so as soon as
possible, before installing other software.
Non-US users should please not download any encryption software from
the USA. This can get the maintainers of the sites from which the
software is downloaded into severe legal difficulties.
A non-US distribution of Kerberos is also being developed, and current
versions can generally be obtained by anonymous FTP from
braae.ru.ac.za.
There is also a mailing list for the discussion of non-US encryption
software. For more information, send an email message with a single
line saying ``help'' in the body of your message to
<majordomo@braae.ru.ac.za>.
2 Hardware compatibility
------------------------
2.1: What kind of hard drives does FreeBSD run on?
FreeBSD supports ST-506 (sometimes called ``MFM''), RLL, and ESDI
drives, which are usually connected to WD-1002, WD-1003, or WD-1006
controllers (although clones should also work). FreeBSD also supports
IDE and SCSI hard drives.
2.2: What SCSI controllers are supported?
FreeBSD supports the following SCSI controllers:
Adaptec AH-154x Series <ISA>
AH-174x Series <EISA>
AH-152x Series <ISA>
Buslogic BT-445 Series <VLB> (but see section 1.5)
BT-545 Series <ISA>
BT-742 Series <EISA>
BT-747 Series <EISA>
BT-964 Series <PCI>
Future Domain TMC-8xx/950 Series <ISA>
Generic NCR 53C810 based controllers <PCI>
ProAudioSpectrum Zilog 5380 based controllers <ISA>
SCSI-2 controllers <ISA>
Seagate ST-01/02 Series <ISA>
UltraStor UH-14f Series <ISA>
UH-34f Series <EISA/VLB>
2.3: What CD-ROM drives are supported by FreeBSD?
Any SCSI drive connected to a supported controller. Mitsumi
LU002(8bit), LU005(16bit) and FX001D(16bit 2x Speed).
FreeBSD does NOT support drives connected to a Sound Blaster or
non-SCSI SONY or Panasonic drives at this time. A general rule of thumb when
selecting a CDROM drive for FreeBSD use is to buy a very standard SCSI
model; they cost more, but deliver very solid performance in return.
Do not be fooled by very cheap drives that, in turn, deliver VERY LOW
performance! As always, you get what you pay for.
The Mitsumi driver is known to be extremely slow compared to SCSI
drives.
2.4: What multi-port serial cards are supported by FreeBSD?
AST/4 and BOCA 4/8/16 port cards. Some unnamed clone cards have also
been known to work, especially those that claim to be AST compatible.
Check the sio(4) man page to get more information on configuring such
cards.
2.5: Does FreeBSD support the AHA-2742 SCSI adapter from Adaptec?
No, FreeBSD does not. This is due to Adaptec's unwillingness to
supply programming information under other than non-disclosure. This
is unfortunate, but there's nothing we can do about it.
2.6: I have a Mumbleco bus mouse. Is it supported and if so, how do I set
it up for XFree86?
FreeBSD supports the Logitech and ATI Inport bus mice. You need to
add the following line to the kernel config file and recompile for the
Logitech and ATI mice:
device mse0 at isa? port 0x23c tty irq6 vector mseintr
2.7: I have a PS/2 mouse (`keyboard' mouse) [Alternatively: I have a
laptop with a track-ball mouse]. How do I use it?
The PS/2 mouse is part of the system. See the psm0 driver description
/sys/doc/options.doc.
2.8: What types of tape drives are supported under FreeBSD?
FreeBSD supports SCSI, QIC-02 and QIC-40/80 (Floppy based) tape
drives. This includes 8-mm (aka Exabyte) and DAT drives.
2.9: What sound cards are supported by FreeBSD?
FreeBSD supports the SoundBlaster, SoundBlaster Pro, Pro Audio
Spectrum 16, AdLib and Gravis UltraSound sound cards. There is also
limited support for MPU-401 and compatible MIDI cards. The
SoundBlaster 16 and SoundBlaster 16 ASP cards are not yet supported.
NOTE: This is only for sound! This driver does not support CD-ROMs,
SCSI or joysticks on these cards.
2.10: What network cards does FreeBSD support?
There is support for the following cards:
`ed' driver:
NE2000 and 1000
WD/SMC 8003, 8013 and Elite Ultra (8216)
3Com 3c503
And clones of the above
`ie' driver:
AT&T EN100/StarLAN 10
3Com 3c507
`is' driver:
Isolan AT 4141-0
Isolink 4110
`ep' driver:
3com 3c509 (*)
`el' driver:
3com 3c501 (*)
`ze' driver:
IBM PCMCIA credit card adapter
(*)The `ep' and `el' driver is known to have some problems; see the
/usr/src/KNOWNBUGS file for more details.
2.11: I have a 386/486sx/486SLC machine without a math co-processor.
Will this cause me any problems?
Generally no, but there are circumstances where you will take a hit,
either in performance or accuracy of the math emulation code (see
section 4.1). In particular, drawing arcs in X will be VERY slow. It
is highly recommended that you lay out the $50 or so for a math
co-processor; it's well worth it. NOTE: Some math co-processors are
better than others. It pains us to say it, but nobody ever got fired
for buying Intel. Unless you're sure it works with FreeBSD, beware of
clones.
2.12: I am about to buy a new machine to run FreeBSD on and
want an idea of what other people are running. Is there list
of other systems anywhere?
Yes. Please look at the file FAQ/OTHER-FAQS/Systems.FAQ. This file
is a listing of hardware that people are running in their machines.
Please note, this is a raw listing of equipment that other users
have sent in.
3 Commercial Applications
-------------------------
Note: This section is still very sparse, though we're hoping, of
course, that companies will add to it! :) The FreeBSD group has no
financial interest in any of the companies listed here but simply
lists them as a public service (and feels that commercial interest in
FreeBSD can have very positive effects on FreeBSD's long-term
viability). We encourage commercial software vendors to send their
entries here for inclusion.
<XXX> 3.1: Where can I get Motif for FreeBSD?
4 User Applications
-------------------
4.1: I want to run X, how do I go about it?
First, get the XFree86 distribution of X11R5 from XFree86.cdrom.com.
The version you want for FreeBSD 1.1 and later is XFree86 2.1. Follow
the instructions for installation carefully. You may then wish to read
the documentation for the ConfigXF86 tool, which assists you in
configuring XFree86 for your particular graphics card/mouse/etc.
4.1: I've been trying to run ghostscript on a 386 (or 486sx) with no
math co-processor and I keep getting errors. What's up?
You will need to add the alternate math emulator to your kernel, you do this
by adding the following to your kernel config file and it will be compiled in.
options GPL_MATH_EMULATE
NOTE: You will need to remove the MATH_EMULATE option when you do this.
4.2: I want all this neat software, but I haven't got the space or
CPU power to compile it all myself. Is there any way of getting
binaries?
Yes. We support the concept of a `package', which is essentially a
gzipped binary distribution with a little extra intelligence embedded
in it for doing any custom installation work required. Packages can
also be installed or deinstalled again easily without having to know
the gory details. CDROM people will have a packages/ directory on
their CD, others can get the currently available packages from:
ftp.FreeBSD.ORG:pub/FreeBSD/packages
Note that all ports may not be available as packages, and that new
packages are constantly being added. It is always a good idea to
check periodically to see which packages are available. A README file
in the packages directory provides more details on the care and
feeding of the package software, so no explicit details will be given
here.
5 Miscellaneous Questions
----------------
5.1: I've heard of something called FreeBSD-current. How do I run it, and
where can I get more information?
Read the file /usr/src/contrib/FAQ/OTHER-FAQS/FreeBSD.current.policy,
it will tell you all you need to know.
5.2: What is this thing called `sup', and how do I use it?
SUP stands for Software Update Protocol, and was developed by CMU for
keeping their development trees in sync. We use it to keep remote
sites in sync with our central development sources.
To use it, you need to have direct internet connectivity (not just
mail or news). First, pick up the sup_bin.tgz package from:
ftp.FreeBSD.ORG:pub/FreeBSD/packages
Second, read the file /usr/src/contrib/FAQ/FreeBSD.sup.faq.
This file describes how to setup sup on your machine. You may also
want to look at /usr/src/contrib/FAQ/FreeBSD.*.supfile,
which are a set of supfiles for supping from FreeBSD.ORG.
5.3: How do I create customized installation disks that I can give
out to other people at my site?
The entire process of creating installation disks and source and
binary archives is automated by various targets in
/usr/src/etc/Makefile. The information there should be enough to get
you started.
5.4: How do I re-build my system without clobbering the existing
installed binaries?
If you define the environment variable DESTDIR while running `make
world' or `make install', the newly-created binaries will be deposited
in a directory tree identical to the installed one, rooted at
${DESTDIR}. Some random combination of shared libraries modifications
and program rebuilds can cause this to fail in `make world', however.
5.5: When my system booted, it told me that ``(bus speed defaulted)''.
What does that mean?
The Adaptec 1542 SCSI host adapters allow the user to configure their
bus access speed in software. Previous versions of the 1542 driver tried
to determine the fastest usable speed and set the adapter to that. We
found that this breaks some users' systems, so you now have to define
the ``TUNE_1542''' kernel configuration option in order to have this
take place. Using it on those systems where it works may make your
disks run faster, but on those systems where it doesn't, your data could
be corrupted.
5.6: I would like to track changes to current and do not have net access.
Is there any way besides downloading the whole tree?
Yes, Poul-Henning has set up a source tracking list. Please email
majordomo@ref.tfs.com with a body of "get ctm-src-cur README" for
futher information.
5.7: How do I split up large binary files into smaller 240k files
like the distribution does?
Newer BSD based systems have a "-b" option to split that allows them to
split files on arbitary byte bondaries.
Here is an example from /usr/src/Makefile.
bin-tarball:
(cd ${DISTDIR}; \
tar cf - . \
gzip --no-name -9 -c | \
split -b 240640 - \
${RELEASEDIR}/tarballs/bindist/bin_tgz.)
<XXX> 5.8: I've had a couple of system panics and would like to be able
browse the system dumps. The normal kernel is stripped and
I don't want to run a bloated kernel. What can I do?
6 Kernel Configuration
----------------------
6.1: When I compile a kernel with multi-port serial code, it tells me
that only the first port is probed and the rest skipped due to
interrupt conflicts. How do I fix this?
The problem here is that FreeBSD has code built-in to keep the kernel
from getting trashed due to hardware or software conflicts. The way
to fix this is to leave out the IRQ settings on other ports besides
the first. Here is a example:
#
# Multiport high-speed serial line - 16550 UARTS
#
device sio2 at isa? port 0x2a0 tty irq 5 flags 0x501 vector siointr
device sio3 at isa? port 0x2a8 tty flags 0x501 vector siointr
device sio4 at isa? port 0x2b0 tty flags 0x501 vector siointr
device sio5 at isa? port 0x2b8 tty flags 0x501 vector siointr
6.2: FreeBSD is supposed to come with support for QIC-40/80 drives but
when I look, I can't find it.
You need to uncomment the following line in the generic config file
(or add it to your config file) and recompile.
controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr
disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0
disk
fd1 at fdc0 drive 1
#tape ft0 at fdc0 drive 2
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You will have a device called /dev/ft0, which you can write to through
a special program to manage it called `ft' - see the man page on ft for
further details. Versions previous to -current also had some trouble dealing
wiht bad tape media; if you have trouble where ft seems to go back and forth
over the same spot, try grabbing the latest version of ft from /usr/src/sbin/ft
in current and try that.
6.3: Does FreeBSD support IPC primitives like those in System V?
Yes, FreeBSD supports System V-style IPC. This includes shared
memory, messages and semaphores. You need to add the following lines
to your kernel config to enable them.
options SYSVSHM
options "SHMMAXPGS=64" # 256Kb of sharable memory
options SYSVSEM # enable for semaphores
options SYSVMSG # enable for messaging
Recompile and install.
6.4: Will FreeBSD ever support other architectures?
Several different groups have expressed interest in working on
multi-architecture support for FreeBSD. If you are interested in
doing so, please contact the developers at
<FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG> for more information on our
strategy for porting.
6.5: I just wrote a device driver for a Foobar Systems, Inc.
Integrated Adaptive Gronkulator card. How do I get the
appropriate major numbers assigned?
This depends on whether or not you plan on making the driver publicly
available. If you do, then please send us a copy of the driver source
code, plus the appropriate modifications to files.i386, a sample
configuration file entry, and the appropriate MAKEDEV code to create
any special files your device uses. If you do not, or are unable to
because of licensing restrictions, then character major number 32 and
block major number 8 have been reserved specifically for this purpose;
please use them. In any case, we'd appreciate hearing about your
driver on <FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>.
7 System Administration
-----------------------
7.1: How do I add a user easily? I read the man page and am more confused
than ever! [Alternatively: I didn't read the man page, I never read
man pages! :-) ]
Use the adduser command.
<XXX> 7.2: I'm trying to use my printer and keep running into problems. I tried
looking at /etc/printcap, but it's close to useless. Any ideas?
8 Networking
------------
8.2: I've heard that you can use a FreeBSD box as a dedicated network
router - is there any easy support for this?
Internet standards and good engineering practice prohibit us from
providing packet forwarding by default in FreeBSD. You can enable
this support by adding `options GATEWAY' to your kernel configuration
file and recompiling. In most cases, you will also need to run a
routing process to tell other systems on your network about your
router; FreeBSD comes with the standard BSD routing daemon routed(8),
or for more complex situations you may want to try GateD (available by
FTP from gated.Cornell.edu) which supports FreeBSD as of 3_5Alpha7.
It is our duty to warn you that, even when FreeBSD is configured in
this way, it does not completely comply with the Internet standard
requirements for routers; however, it comes close enough for ordinary
usage.
8.3: Does FreeBSD support SLIP and PPP?
Yes. See the man pages for slattach(8) and/or pppd(8) if you're using
FreeBSD to connect to another site. If you're using FreeBSD as a
server for other machines, look at the man page for sliplogin(8).
You may also want to take a look at the slip FAQ in:
FAQ/Slip.FAQ
8.4: How do I set up NTP?
NTP configuration is so complex and widely variable from site to site
that it would be impossible to make a blanket statement here. Your
best bet is to ask whoever's in charge of NTP at your site or network
provider; chances are that they are running a similar version of NTP
to the one that we provide, and they can probably provide you with the
right configuration files to get things going.
If you can't find anyone in charge, you should examine the files in
/usr/src/contrib/xntpd/doc and see if they help any. If not, you
could ask on the comp.protocols.time.ntp newsgroup, or the
<ntp@ni.umd.edu> mailing-list.
8.5: How do I get my network set up? I don't see how to make my
/dev/ed0 device!
In the Berkeley networking framework, network interfaces are only
directly accessible by kernel code. Please see the /etc/netstart file
and the manual pages for the various network programs mentioned there
for more information. If this leaves you totally confused, then you
should pick up a book describing network administration on another
BSD-related operating system; with few significant exceptions,
administering networking on FreeBSD is basically the same as on SunOS
4.0 or Ultrix.
8.6: How do I get my 3C503 to use the other network port?
Use `ifconfig ed0' to see whether the ALTPHYS flag is set, and then
use either `ifconfig ed0 altphys' if it was off, or `ifconfig ed0
-altphys' if it was on.
8.7: I'm having problems with NFS to/from FreeBSD and my Wuffotronics
Workstation / generic NFS appliance, where should I look first?
Certain PC network cards are better than others (to put it mildly) and
can sometimes cause problems with network intensive applications like
NFS. See /usr/src/contrib/FAQ/OTHER-FAQS/NFS for more information on this
topic.
8.8: I want to enable IP multicast support on my FreeBSD box, how do I do it?
[Alternatively: What the heck IS multicasting and what applications
make use of it?]
Multicast host operations are fully supported in FreeBSD 2.0 by default.
If you want your box to run as a multicast router, you will need to load
the ip_mroute_mod loadable kernel module and run mrouted.
For more information:
Product Description Where
--------------- ----------------------- ---------------------------------------
faq.txt Mbone FAQ ftp.isi.edu:/mbone/faq.txt
imm/immserv IMage Multicast ftp.hawaii.edu:/paccom/imm.src.tar.Z
for jpg/gif images.
nv Network Video. ftp.parc.xerox.com:
/pub/net-reseach/exp/nv3.3alpha.tar.Z
vat LBL Visual Audio Tool. ftp.ee.lbl.gov:
/conferencing/vat/i386-vat.tar.Z
wb LBL White Board. ftp.ee.lbl.gov:
/conferencing/wb/i386-wb.tar.Z
mmcc MultiMedia Conference ftp.isi.edu:
Control program /confctrl/mmcc/mmcc-intel.tar.Z
rtpqual Tools for testing the ftp.psc.edu:/pub/net_tools/rtpqual.c
quality of RTP packets.
vat_nv_record Recording tools for vat ftp.sics.se:archive/vat_nv_record.tar.Z
and nv.
9 Serial Communications
-----------------------
NOTE: Anyone wishing to submit a FAQ entry on how to get tip and cu working
would have it much appreciated! We all use Kermit over here! :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you see a problem with this FAQ, or wish to submit an entry, please
mail us at <FreeBSD-FAQ@FreeBSD.ORG>. We appreciate your
feedback, and cannot make this a better FAQ without your help!
FreeBSD Core Team
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS:
Gary Clark II - Our head FreeBSD FAQ maintenance man
Jordan Hubbard - Janitorial services (I don't do windows)
Garrett Wollman - Networking and formatting
Robert Oliver, Jr. - Ideas and dumb questions (That made me think)
Ollivier Robert - Invaluable feedback and contributions
Jim Lowe - Multicast information
The FreeBSD Team - Kvetching, moaning, submitting data
And to any others we've forgotten, apologies and heartfelt thanks!
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